25 in Drain
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Author Note

16th Jun 2018, 2:32 PM edit | delete

Mmm I've been drawing other characters in a different style a lot recently, this doesn't even feel like my comic at this point haha


16th Jun 2018, 3:24 PM edit | delete | reply

I don't have much to say, other than it's a rare treat seeing Dylan being honest like this.

16th Jun 2018, 3:38 PM edit | delete | reply

now we just need him being honest and smiling at the same time

16th Jun 2018, 3:47 PM edit | delete | reply

they call me Johnny 2 ghosts

17th Jun 2018, 7:52 PM edit | delete | reply

Heh. I have to say Jerry surprised me here. I was hoping he would either know or would try to talk his way out of it a bit in a very Jerry fashion but nope! He straight up thinks Suit Jerry is Rob or Rob's ghost so I guess that really plays for that hypothesis, huh.
If yes then the question remains: Why the HECK would Rob stalk Dylan?

I have to say good job at making Dylan looking so freaking tired. I feel him, haha. Down to possible itching from his sweater around his neck area, LMAO :D

18th Jun 2018, 6:28 PM edit | delete | reply

I'm still considering that the real Dylan is dead and the "Dylan" we've been seeing this whole time is Jerry after convincing himself he's Dylan. But he killed Robin before "becoming Dylan". And that's why Robin is haunting him.

20th Jun 2018, 5:55 PM edit | delete | reply

Hm. I think that could work but I am not so sure about other people in the story.
What do you think happened and how?
People would notice it is not real Dylan. I know they are twins and there is a possibility Jerry mentally copied Dylan accurately but I still think people would notice it when the real Dylan was buried or such. I also think Corey out of all people would get a hint.

18th Jun 2018, 2:10 PM edit | delete | reply

Cackling at the second panel.

21st Jun 2018, 11:08 PM edit | delete | reply

Jerry only understands humour

20th Jun 2018, 12:45 AM edit | delete | reply

So, putting my hypotheses in a row here—neatly ordered by complexity, naturally…

Who killed Jerry?

[Low] Dylan killed Jerry of his own volition. (Requires no new information.)
[Medium] Dylan killed Jerry, but was influenced/possessed by a third party—putatively Suit Jerry. (Requires moderate extension of Suit Jerry's powers.)
[Medium] Suit Jerry killed Jerry, then convinced Dylan that he did it. (Requires moderate extension of Suit Jerry's powers.)
[Medium] A third party who is NOT Suit Jerry (Rob, Corey etc.) killed Jerry, potentially by influencing/possessing Dylan. (Requires some indirection and possibly additional supernatural abilities.) Added thanks to MadJak91's observations.
[High] Jerry killed Dylan and stole his identity. (Requires some serious convolutions.)

Who is Suit Jerry?

[Low] Jerry in a different guise. (Have we ever seen the two together? Would require Jerry to be a very good actor, though…)
[Medium] Another aspect of Jerry. (Requires adding "fragmentation" to afterlife metaphysics, but we've already accepted that ghosts exist, so…)
[Medium] Rob. (Ghosts seem to exist, so why wouldn't he have one? Would require some curious motivations from Rob and that he knows how to disguise his identity as a ghost.)
[High] A third party other than Rob, Jerry or Dylan. (No indication of this so far, so requires some very complex hidden variables.) Added following MadJak91's observations.
[High] Some weird hallucination/Dylan's conscience. (Narratively odd choice and ghosts seem to be real anyway—why add hallucinations to the mix?)

Of course, if this was real life, the lowest complexity penalty would go to the hypothesis that Dylan is simply a murderer, possibly murdered Rob in addition to his brother and experiences pronounced delusional thinking and hallucinations… But I don't quite think Moth would do that, wicked as they can be! ;)

20th Jun 2018, 12:48 AM edit | delete | reply

(Also, "you've been seeing other dead guys behind my back" was laugh out loud funny, as in I literally laughed aloud. Touché, you deceased douchebag.)

20th Jun 2018, 6:03 PM edit | delete | reply

Interesting you completely skipped the possibility that Rob killed Jerry although if we combine it with your option that Rob is Suit Jerry and Suit Jerry killed Jerry then Rob killed Jerry.
Although I agree because I think the "default" option Moth wants us to believe is that Rob killed Jerry but I believe it is not that at all and more convoluted.
And I still like how we are moving away from "Dylan did it" :D

One of the old pages has Suit Jerry visiting Dylan and that is when he first says he knows Dylan killed Jerry because he listened to him at Jerry's grave.
I THINK that is the only instance when Suit Jerry kind of transforms into Ghost Jerry and even suddenly starts bleeding from his wound. But it might be nothing of note although it would slightly support Dylan's possible hallucination.

21st Jun 2018, 11:26 AM edit | delete | reply

You understood correctly—I'm hypothesising Suit Jerry (SJ) is the killer and SJ is Rob independently. My intuition is that the conditional probability P(SJ killed Jerry | SJ is Rob) is higher than P(SJ killed Jerry), since Rob masquerading as SJ implies more about his abilities and constrains his motivations.

However, I should still have called out another third party killing Jerry. You could imagine Rob still being the killer separately from Rob being SJ; e.g. Rob's ghost possessed Dylan, SJ is a fragmented aspect of Jerry who honestly thinks Dylan was the killer.

I also like how we're moving away from Dylan being the killer… Though honestly, I wouldn't put it past Moth to be setting us up! Going a bit meta, I reckon Moth is a) devious, b) not terribly kind to their characters and c) perfectly willing to give readers enough rope to hang themselves. ;) Also, Moth has never been coy about the possibility that their characters are unreliable narrators…

Do old pages = the previous incarnation of this comic that only the super special secret fan club have read? Or is it an archive page I forgot?

22nd Jun 2018, 2:09 PM edit | delete | reply

i can't believe i have been called devious and accused of treating my characters poorly

also I do not endorse raiding wayback machine for the old pages because there's good a reason I scrapped them

22nd Jun 2018, 5:43 PM edit | delete | reply

Ah! I meant an older page of this version. Sorry.
If I am not mistaken, these are the only time when Suit Jerry looks more like Ghost Jerry and even has the trademarked head wound.
This fact also supports Suit Jerry might be just a hallucination. Ghosts seems to be real in the story, yes, UNLESS there is much more at play here and a few people are borderline insane. Especially Dylan who let's say uses ghosts to explain matters to himself. Which would suggest Dylan is mostly talking to himself and trying to convince himself (represented by Ghost Jerry) but I do not believe the ghosts are not real and it is ALL just inside his head.

I agree about Rob and Suit Jerry but I also agree with Wooster's links because he pointed it out a few times:
Suit Jerry was present in the maternity ward in the past already.

I am also not sure what Rob wants with Dylan because I do not think he knew Dylan? Unless he is pissed about his death and Jerry and decided to torture Dylan which also means he believed Dylan's words back after the funeral.

21st Jun 2018, 4:23 PM edit | delete | reply

There might be something to the idea that Dylan didn't do anything. Before our first flashback to the murder, Dylan is surrounded by Illuminati eyes. It's a reoccurring element in the comic. They may be related to implanting memories.

During the act of the murder there's some scribble text provoking him to murder Jerry. Though if this is Dapper Jerry or Dylan's own thoughts is indeterminate.

The evidence against Dapper Jerry having any involvement in the murder could be that it's only at this page that he possesses/tails Dylan. And later Dylan confessess everything. If Dapper Jerry didn't know anything beforehand, he knows everything now. Some minor evidence to support this, there's a black text box saying 'fine', which is likely Dapper Jerry before Dylan confesses everything; Dapper Jerry isn't harassing Dylan here, before Dylan confesses.

Uncertain of the significance, but Cail's the only one who doesn't have eyes over him on this page.

I think the origin of Dapper Jerry and Jerry being the same person might've been from this page. It may look like Dapper Jerry turns into normal Jerry. But Dapper Jerry is appearing in the mirror 'in front of' Dylan, while Jerry is in the wall 'behind' him. It's some very good misdirection.

Perhaps the most solid evidence that Dapper Jerry isn't Rob or Jerry is that he was apparently present during the incident in the maternity ward.

22nd Jun 2018, 5:51 PM edit | delete | reply

Any further thoughts on Cail?
I noticed that too plus he was present when Corey and Jerry argued.

I was always suspicious of Cail and there is the fact he had problems with Rob but otherwise is a mystery and seems unrelated. I would say he MIGHT have manipulated a series of events after witnessing the squabble to maybe get rid of whoever he disliked but since he is such non-presence, I just highly speculate.

22nd Jun 2018, 6:50 PM edit | delete | reply

I'm 90% certain Cail is behind the black roses. However, the significance of the black roses is lost on me, since they seem unrelated to anything noticed so far.

I suspect, without anything really to support it, that Cail may have been the student Rob stabbed. Cail's interaction with Beth suggests he's not really respected, and I think that it might compound the issue if he was stabbed, but was forgotten as the victim. But that's really idle speculation on my part.

… what do you mean he had problems with Rob? To the best of my knowledge, Cail hasn't said anything acknowledging Rob.

22nd Jun 2018, 7:32 PM edit | delete | reply

Disregard that part. I also think Cail might be the student Rob stabbed which would mean he had a problem with Rob but it was not in fact confirmed nor hinted. I made a mistake there. Thanks!!

Was Cail present when Dylan encountered the black roses? I know he was once at least but I agree. Not sure what his point would be other than psychological pressure which I guess would be good enough? If we assume Cail knows or suspects something then it might a way to force Dylan into confession but the problem remains that Cail so far did little to raise any suspicion. What we have is how we see him but:
1. Moth put him there when Corey and Jerry were arguing.
2. Considering the general attention to various clues in this comic, your link still has value as something telling us we should keep Cail in mind.
Maybe if we consider a possibility that Cail pieced bits of information from that day until present and figured there are cracks in the family or just plainly thinks Dylan is the kind of person to murder his brother so he is toying with Dylan. But it is all just guessing.

Regardless, thanks! That remark was a mix up with a previous discussion about Cail.

20th Jun 2018, 8:27 PM edit | delete | reply

I'm confused -- what evidence do we have that Rob killed Jerry, again?

21st Jun 2018, 11:40 AM edit | delete | reply

We don't have much positive evidence, and what evidence there is still implies that Dylan did it.

Nevertheless, this is a universe where (most likely) ghosts are real and capable of inducing hallucinations or being forced into producing visions—and who knows what else. It's entirely possible, for example, that Rob killed Jerry, ran off and accidentally drowned, then came back and induced a vision convincing Dylan that he killed Jerry. Or that ghosts can coerce the living and Rob did so to Dylan that night.

Dylan knows that ghosts are real now, but he didn't before Jerry showed up. If he were coerced into killing Jerry, or tricked into believing he had, it's possible he hasn't re-evaluated that cached belief based on new evidence.

21st Jun 2018, 12:59 PM edit | delete | reply

That's fair, makes sense.

22nd Jun 2018, 5:48 PM edit | delete | reply

I will just add that "we" do not really have any evidence but "they" suspect Rob from the start so it is possible. Basically, he is the prime suspect from the story's point of view. It is good to consider that possibility but I guess looking at the world from our perspective we have the advantage of piecing it together much better ;)

Another thing. As Jordan pointed out, most of it still hints at Dylan and that was the set-up of the story in the first place. However, all we really know is that Jerry was on his way home, Dylan was waiting, SOMETHING HAPPENED and suddenly Dylan is pretty sure he killed his brother.
All we really have are Dylan's own words so take them for what they are... Hm.

22nd Jun 2018, 12:19 AM edit | delete | reply

I'm still going to roll with the unpopular theory that Dylan did kill Jerry and that both "ghosts" are hallucinations of his unstable mind. That likely presupposes that Dylan also killed Rob, because how else would he know where to find the body, but I'm not convinced of that yet, as he may only be imagining that piece of information. Other than Ghost Jerry, Dylan did not interact with anyone or anything during the trip and investigation of Rob's body, which doesn't leave us with any reliable outside observer. For all we really know, Rob is still just missing, and the conversation with Corey was virtually no help in casting him as either a witness or suspect.

There are lots of clues floating about, but no solid evidence of anything yet. Right now I'm content to just see how the story unfolds. ;)

22nd Jun 2018, 10:38 AM edit | delete | reply

In most media that I've read, hallucinations typically lack a concept of self. It's always "You should do this." Or "You're a horrible person for doing that." There's no "I want this." They also typically lack knowledge outside of who they're plaguing.

By that definition, Ghost Jerry doesn't fit the bill for a hallucination. He wanted his jacket. He makes petty comments and constantly says things that Dylan has no reason to know, typically revolving around Corey.

Dapper Jerry on the other hand, fits the bill rather cleanly for a hallucination. Everything he's said has been judgmental of Dylan, and he hasn't slipped up by saying something Dylan hasn't known or couldn't strongly suspect. That said, I have my suspicions that Dapper Jerry is a ghost of some sort as well.

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